Re: ASW forum has become a barrel of FAIL

[Valentin K]

[...]
As I said before, I want to put this to rest instead of arguing, but why do you equate spammers with insulting people and agitators? mrxak left the spam topic open because mindless spam is completely harmless, this is an entirely separate issue from flamewars.

Because spam is just as disturbing as insulting posts are - so why should we differentiate between the two in our reactions?

[Buzzzy]

Because its all the same - at least.

Because spam is just as disturbing as insulting posts are - so why should we differentiate between the two in our reactions?

What the hell? I really don't want to start a fight, but this logic is mind-baffling. Insults are insulting—they target members, they seek to offend people. Flaming is deliberately attacking and harassing people. On the other hand, spam is just posting completely irrelevant stuff, no harm there. I’m not suggesting derailing topics that once had a subject. But this topic is nothing more than a spam topic, I don’t see any harm in spamming in it. If you believe they are the same, please explain further how they are same.

[djpimley]

Let's not go around in circles. Buzzzzy, I thank you for the tone of your posts in this forum which, frankly, have been a lot more civil and eloquent than I expected.

[20FingerS]

Insults are insulting—they target members, Flaming is deliberately attacking and harassing people, spam is just posting completely irrelevant stuff, no harm there.

In which category should go telling the mods to take care of Redline add-ons developers and players who keeps redline alive? Cause I have been temporarily banned for that?

[Buzzzy]

Insults are insulting—they target members, Flaming is deliberately attacking and harassing people, spam is just posting completely irrelevant stuff, no harm there.

In which category should go telling the mods to take care of Redline add-ons developers and players who keeps redline alive? Cause I have been temporarily banned for that?

Obviously I cannot speak for mrxak (if it helps you to know, he has a tendency to behave the exact same way in other forums as in the Redline forum) or you, but my understanding is that you received your temporary ban because you posted a heated post in response to posts in this topic and this topic in the midst of a spam topic. Evidently mrxak considered this post to be bringing up the previous flame war out of context. He was most certainly not banning you for spamming.

[C.P. Frost]

Fudge, I wrote a really lengthy reply here earlier and it's not there. I guess I didn't post it properly (unless I'm being censored here, which I doubt).

Um, no, that’s not what I meant. I was suggesting to stop spreading negative feelings, and drop it.

I know what you meant. I wasn't disagreeing that we should bring down the tone necessarily (though I sort of do), I was criticizing the premise underlying your explanation of why we should. You were suggesting that we should do so because RL is just a game and this is just the internet, but that's my point -- this board is about people and a community, not just the internet, and that's the reality on which I base my criticisms. The attitude of "this isn't real" is what I believed got us into this mess in the first place.

I’d also like to clarify some things. I read the B&B, but I’ve never posted there. I’m not really part of either crowd entirely. Secondly, you assume that the B&B relies on anonymity without verifying this.

Members of this forum have, with some frequency, met each other in real life, and know each other's real names.

Read the whole thing here.

I'd happily read it, but I'm banned. Not that I shouldn't be.

You're right, I shouldn't fall into the same trap of ignorance I think mane of the non-RL posters have. And from a social psychology standpoint, both sides are exhibiting serious ingroup-outgroup behavior. But there's a difference: the rules by which these guys abide apparently allow them to waltz in on a whim and act like it's cabbage night. This community isn't built on hit-and-run missions and shared schadenfreude, it's built on mutual respect and understanding. If they're not hiding behind anonymity that may be even worse, because instead of holding one another personally accountable for incendiary behavior, they're co-enabling themselves into a shitstorm. If they want to pull a 4chan, they should go on 4chan.

Please, it does nobody any good to spread negative feelings about anyone. That said, I’d like to be frankly honest about one statement you made:

We're not living in the same social space as they are, and we're not going to wait around for them to quiet down so we can have a conversation.

This is like the definition of xenophobia. The Redline forum isn’t a membership club, anyone on Ambrosia Forums can post in it. Especially seeing as you don’t have moderator privileges, you are obligated to respect other social behaviors. If someone wants to be loud and rowdy and can still contribute to the community, so be it. It’s not your say to exclude them.

That is most definitely not the full definition of xenophobia, which usually involves the word "irrational"; by way of hyperbolic contrast, waging war in Independence Day wasn't xenophobia. When First Contact involves posting a picture of gilded shit in a topic devoted to friendship and shared passion, and 90% of the board's activity in a 24 hour period takes place in a thread mocking our community for its small size and perceived lack of sophistication, we are completely within our rights to be pissed. This is the equivalent of a bunch of kids from the big city going into small-town Georgia and making fun of everything they see. Fortunately for them, we're not quite inbred psychopaths (thanks to Pax for the Deliverance reference in the ASW thread).

Along the same lines, I am NOT obligated to respect social behaviors which are themselves disrespectful. What does that even mean? These guys come in and traipse about in delight, and we keep our lips zipped until the mods close everything down? The mods thought these topics were healthy for the forum. Note the near-unanimous dissent to that notion from everyone who actually reads the forum! I understand that they're real people with real lives who deserve a little respect and empathy. But that does not stop me from being appalled by the inanity of their actions. You say they're contributing to the community, but I see them "contributing" in much the same way that the Spaniards "contributed" to the native population of North America.

If they'd come with the olive branch extended, this would be a very different conversation. But they came to have a laugh at our expense, and so at this point I'm much more interested in restoring the equilibrium of the community than I am of smoking the peace pipe with members with whom we're not broadly compatible. They can take their leave.

[alphonse]

Maybe one day i will understand why you write so many words for this topic.

Hope it helps you all

alf

[Buzzzy]

Um, no, that’s not what I meant. I was suggesting to stop spreading negative feelings, and drop it.

I know what you meant. I wasn't disagreeing that we should bring down the tone necessarily (though I sort of do), I was criticizing the premise underlying your explanation of why we should. You were suggesting that we should do so because RL is just a game and this is just the internet, but that's my point -- this board is about people and a community, not just the internet, and that's the reality on which I base my criticisms. The attitude of "this isn't real" is what I believed got us into this mess in the first place.

This is true for all online communities outside of 4chan and such. I probably should have been more clear. What I meant is not to emphasize specifically that Redline is a game, or that the community is online, but that no one is threatening anyone’s life here, and in the long run no one’s posts really made any drastic impacts on anyone’s lives. I don’t think this is worth getting very upset over, it leads you nowhere and solves no problems—in no way am I minimizing the significance of your community’s existence.

You're right, I shouldn't fall into the same trap of ignorance I think mane of the non-RL posters have. And from a social psychology standpoint, both sides are exhibiting serious ingroup-outgroup behavior. But there's a difference: the rules by which these guys abide apparently allow them to waltz in on a whim and act like it's cabbage night. This community isn't built on hit-and-run missions and shared schadenfreude, it's built on mutual respect and understanding. If they're not hiding behind anonymity that may be even worse, because instead of holding one another personally accountable for incendiary behavior, they're co-enabling themselves into a shitstorm. If they want to pull a 4chan, they should go on 4chan.

As Mack said earlier, no one sanctioned any of the posts that were posted aside from the later spam posts which were not directed at anyone. In fact, the “Hey ATT” topic you replied to featured several members of the ATT community refusing to participate in the events.

Please, it does nobody any good to spread negative feelings about anyone. That said, I’d like to be frankly honest about one statement you made:

We're not living in the same social space as they are, and we're not going to wait around for them to quiet down so we can have a conversation.

This is like the definition of xenophobia. The Redline forum isn’t a membership club, anyone on Ambrosia Forums can post in it. Especially seeing as you don’t have moderator privileges, you are obligated to respect other social behaviors. If someone wants to be loud and rowdy and can still contribute to the community, so be it. It’s not your say to exclude them.

That is most definitely not the full definition of xenophobia, which usually involves the word "irrational"; by way of hyperbolic contrast, waging war in Independence Day wasn't xenophobia. When First Contact involves posting a picture of gilded shit in a topic devoted to friendship and shared passion, and 90% of the board's activity in a 24 hour period takes place in a thread mocking our community for its small size and perceived lack of sophistication, we are completely within our rights to be pissed.

No this is not the complete definition of xenophobia. I agree that Two Jacks’s golden poo picture was uncalled for and out of line, although he did make an extensive case later which you may choose whether or not to agree with. I disagree, however, that 90% of the board’s activity was spent on making fun of the community. I’d estimate only as high as around 10%, most of that other 90% was spam that had nothing to do with the Redline community at all. I understand you have a right to be upset, but reacting in anger is never the best way to go about it.

This is the equivalent of a bunch of kids from the big city going into small-town Georgia and making fun of everything they see. Fortunately for them, we're not quite inbred psychopaths (thanks to Pax for the Deliverance reference in the ASW thread).

As long as we're trying to avoid negative feelings, I don’t think the inbred psychopaths mention was entirely necessary or relevant. I understand the sentiment, and I think this is partially true, but not all of the spam was mocking Redline. Most of it had nothing to do with Redline at all, and this I don’t see the harm in.

Along the same lines, I am NOT obligated to respect social behaviors which are themselves disrespectful. What does that even mean? These guys come in and traipse about in delight, and we keep our lips zipped until the mods close everything down? The mods thought these topics were healthy for the forum. Note the near-unanimous dissent to that notion from everyone who actually reads the forum! I understand that they're real people with real lives who deserve a little respect and empathy. But that does not stop me from being appalled by the inanity of their actions. You say they're contributing to the community, but I see them "contributing" in much the same way that the Spaniards "contributed" to the native population of North America.

The same argument was made about African American culture in the past. Social behaviors that may seem disrespectful to you may not truly be intending any harm, and, being part of a public community, you have to learn to accept these behaviors. As I said before, there were several posts that were uncalled for on both sides. I don’t think the irrelevant spam counts.

If they'd come with the olive branch extended, this would be a very different conversation. But they came to have a laugh at our expense, and so at this point I'm much more interested in restoring the equilibrium of the community than I am of smoking the peace pipe with members with whom we're not broadly compatible. They can take their leave.

The people who posted off-topic spam (as opposed to flaming or more hostile trolling) were not laughing at your expense, and I’m sure would welcome your contributions of humorous spam. I, like Mack, don’t personally think that keeping yourselves apart is a good idea, but that’s ultimately your decision.

[Mackilroy]

20FingerS, for the record, 2J showed me and another moderator your PM, so I saw it from multiple sources. The War Room discusses things that go on in the board too.

eniosam was banned for more than just that topic. Again, this is something that the War Room spent a lot of time on.

The BnB is also made up of people who have met each other in real life. Not everyone has, no, but a very large number of them have.

[pEsT]

can't say yet. i will wait a few days and see if i love it

today i can say: i have no more words for it

[Tomte]

Did I write "closed community"? I probably meant 'close community' Or maybe I do wanted to say closed... I don't know anymore. I had a short night. And all the back and forth in 5 different topics confuses me more and more. Who said what, when, to whom....

For me, it comes down to that our (inner) community peace was disturbed. We are not used to spam, to flames, to insults. Apparently there is a difference between the three, but they rest a disturbance to us, because we so rarely have it. Yes, spam might harmless, buzzy, but how many spam topics did we have over the years?

Reading through mrxak's B&B guide for newbies, I felt hardly anybody outside the Redline community followed the rules and customs set out there and applied them to the Redline forum. mrxak's guide is not only valid for their B&B section, but on forums and human interaction in general.

I agree with dj that most of our trouble arises because we don't have a specific off-topic section like EV has. It was granted to them, probably just because their community is so large compared to ours. So the mods usually have a bit more relaxed attitude (but not much I guess) if we stray off or talk personal things.

Anyway, I will go back to something that really matter to me: my daughter. (it's not that the game or the community got less important to me, but she is even more important )

[mrxak]

Most of you don't really know me, and that's partially my fault, but when you make assumptions it only makes an ass out of u and me.

Just to set the record straight on a few things...

eniosam was banned for his behavior after his topic got locked, not for the topic he created consisting of a single smilie. He knows this, even if he's unwilling to admit fault. The decision to ban him was not unilateral, but the result of internal discussions among the moderators and administrators of the boards at large. I'm not inclined to publicly embarrass people, and further discussion of the incidents would have been pointless and further disruptive at the time, so details about what happened were not conveyed to the rest of you. If eniosam wanted to give you his one-sided version, he was free to do so, but take it with a grain of salt. The fact is, we don't ban people for no reason, or bans would be a lot more commonplace.

No people were banned for the "New Forum Designing.." topic. If given the choice between a stern warning to cut it out, and banning a dozen people, I'm inclined to simply give the stern warning. It was my hope this would deescalate things, rather than escalate things. I am keenly aware, from past incidents, that Redline regulars would not take things well had I warned or banned any of you. eniosam is a good example of how things get out of control, as I recall further warnings were given in the resulting incidents.

I have given out several 3-day posting suspensions over the course of resulting attempts to keep the flame war going. These posting suspensions have not been one-sided, but have applied to non-redline people as well. If you only talk about or hear about bans applying to people you know well, be aware that you are not getting the full story.

I have only suspended people who continue to post in a hostile tone about the previous flame war, and I will continue to do so. If you want to discuss it here (if it's allowed here), or make a blog, or a start a physical newsletter, you are welcome to do so. On the official Redline forum, however, continued personal attacks towards anyone will not be tolerated. That includes attacks against me, against you, against anybody. I don't get personally offended when people call me names on the internet, but it's counterproductive for you to do so, and clutters things up for the rest of the Redline forum-goers. Angry personal attacks against anybody, of course, is against forum rules.

I have also suspended people who create new spam topics, outside of "a random topic, Oscar" and will continue to do so. Having one tidy spam topic, I feel, is a good way for everyone to let off steam. Post some funny pictures or make some funny jokes, and laugh a little. Redline is just a game, and the Redline forum is just a forum. If you can't have any humor in life, that's just sad. "a random topic, Oscar" will continue to remain open, as long as people are able to laugh a little. You are free to never read it, or participate in it. No one is stopping you from ignoring it, or making other topics you feel are more appropriate. However, one active spam topic per forum is generally harmless.

The so-called "closing of ranks" that occurs regularly in the Redline community is basically what the "outsiders" are talking about when they say "xenophobia." It's not a racial or national thing. It simply means, in this context, that the Redline community reacts with hostility towards perceived outsiders. This includes people who are most known for posting on other forums in the Ambrosia web board. This includes people like myself, Mackilroy, adam_0, and Buzzzy, who have been playing the game since before you ever heard of it, but consider their "home" communities to be elsewhere.

Many of you have done remarkable work to keep Redline populated with new cars and tracks, and have contributed well towards the game in terms of running tournaments and such. However, some of you have gotten your egos involved in this, and believe you deserve things that you were never promised. Like it or not, posting on the forums is conditional on your good behavior there. This behavior, like it or not, is based on a community standard that predates Redline by many, many years. Ambrosia web boards and its community predates many other well-known communities across the internet, and frankly we're proud of it. Many of you have told me privately, or mentioned publicly, that you believe you are a "subforum". While with certain definitions, this may be true, the reality is you are merely one section that is a part of a larger community. There are no "outsiders", and the same rules apply everywhere. If you get upset and react aggressively to perceived slights by a force that does not actually exist on the map, expect to be called things like "xenophobe" or "insular." I'm getting ahead of myself though.

The Ambrosia web boards are run by a company, at great cost to them, as a way to support their products, and to facilitate communities. Posting there is a privilege, not a right, and offered to you for free. If you violate community standards, harass or flame people, and blatantly ignore warnings by those who are running the place, you shouldn't be that surprised when your privileges are taken away. It does not matter how much you have contributed to the community in terms of plug-ins. Break the rules and there are consequences. Just as you freely chose to contribute positively to the game itself, you can freely choose to either break the rules or not on the forums. Unfortunately, it seems many people, or perhaps just a vocal minority, believe that positive contributions in one sense, but not the other, gives them immunity when they do something wrong. If you don't agree with the rules, you're welcome to spend tens of thousands of dollars on hardware and bandwidth and start your own web boards for all of Ambrosia's games and utilities. Considering how many people are quite happy with the status quo over at the Ambrosia web boards, it would seem that it's just a few Redline forum-goers who are grumpy.

For whatever reason, Redline attracted a very different sort of gamer than the Ambrosia web forums was used to. There wasn't much overlap between the new players coming in, and the people who were already established Ambrosia fans. What overlap there was, which included myself, Mackilroy, Buzzzy, and others, got quickly drowned out by the influx of, for brevity's sake, "newbies". Usually when a new game comes along, the newbies start looking around at other forums kind of get an idea of what the community is like, and use their elders as role models. Sure, there are folks who don't last long, but the ones who do are usually the ones who acclimate well. In Redline's case, there weren't many "oldbies" pre-populating the Redline forum, to give a good example. What few of us there were, we simply disappeared into the mob. Most forums on the Ambrosia web board regulate themselves. If somebody steps out of line, the rest of the community calls them on it before a moderator even notices. In the Redline forum, however, it seems whenever somebody steps out of line, nobody even reports it, a bunch of other people join in, and by the time a moderator finally notices and does something about it, the moderator becomes the bad guy. If a moderator scolds somebody, or Hector forbid does something more serious like gives a non-punishment warn and locks a topic, it's seen as a threat to the Redline community as a whole.

The Redline forum quickly became quite frustrating to moderate, at all, and the four of us original moderators aren't really around anymore. Two of them, I should point out, weren't moderators before then. They were just active beta testers who were really excited about the game and had been positive contributors to the web boards as a whole. Frankly you guys scared them off. The third, of course, was the developer of the game, a single man who worked for years on the game you love, but is now constantly criticized for not spending additional years of his life working on it to this day, for no financial benefit. Then there's me, who got so disgusted by the vitriol thrown at Ambrosia, a company that has provided me with thousands of hours of entertainment (and all of you too), that I asked to quit. That was around when http://legacyoflies.com/ was set up, and the sense of bitterness and entitlement everyone seemed to be having was off the charts. People seemed to think that because they bought the game, that they should be entitled to unlimited free file hosting for life, along with instant tech support. Sorry folks, but Ambrosia is not that big a company, and you didn't pay that much for your game, and major technical hurdles and costs does not allow them to just snap their fingers and overhaul their entire server systems at your every whim. I was horrified, wanted out, and asked to be replaced in my moderator slot. I was convinced to reluctantly stay on, and ElGuapo7, perhaps the only person crazy enough to take on the job, got added to the roster. Since then, I have continued to be harassed whenever I make any attempt to bring order and civility to the forum, and then insulted when I make an effort to avoid serious actions or do nothing at all. ElGuapo7, of course, also has a baby now, and his job keeps him busy too. People like Mackilroy, who is a respected moderator elsewhere, is ignored or ridiculed. Meanwhile, most of you refuse to look at any other Ambrosia forum, and anybody who isn't part of your little group is called a "random douchebag in no way related to redline" and attacked en masse even when they're making perfectly valid comments.

This, folks, is why the Redline board gets people coming to it to poke you in the eye. You are willfully ignorant of those beyond your imagined borders, and quickly move as one force to strike down anyone who is different than you. You don't even tolerate the people who started the Redline community, much less respected members of the community at large. You spread around falsehoods based on one-sided stories of previous moderator actions, and badmouth Ambrosia, Jonas, myself, and other moderators at every turn.

Obviously not every member of your community is responsible for this. I've gotten numerous PMs thanking me for my efforts, many people have posted publicly asking for everyone to stop it and be reasonable, and I've had several long private conversations with a number of you about what's been going on and how we got here. Enough of you want a change, and I think you can achieve it, but you need to understand a few realities.

For one, everyone needs to treat each other with respect, and to not assume other people are treating them with disrespect in ambiguous situations. If it might be a joke, it probably is a joke. Don't overreact and call them names. If somebody is actually treating you with disrespect, don't escalate it, kindly ask them to stop, and click the report button. Basically, lighten up, thicken your skin, and be the better man/woman when a conflict breaks out.

Two, everyone needs to understand what the community standards are. They have not always been enforced, and won't always be. Moderators have wide discretion, and we are also not omniscient. Some things will be missed, sometimes we aren't around, and sometimes we don't think it's as big a deal as you do. Sometimes we've gotten so depressed by widespread poor behavior that we don't even want to visit the Redline forum for weeks at a time. Sometimes we're not interested in the subject matter of a particular topic and only skim it. Learn what the community standards are nonetheless, try to stick to them, and enforce them yourselves with a PM or a simple post telling people in a respectful manner that they are behaving poorly and let them know what is expected of them. To be clear. Calling people names, making personal attacks, and so on, is not okay. Making jokes is okay, but intent matters. Making a joke to hurt somebody's specific feelings, for example, is worse than making a joke about the game. Learning the community standards will require that you go out into other forums, or see what other people from other forums do in the Redline forum. Which brings me to...

Three, admit you're an insular, xenophobic group, and make an effort to become less-so. As far as I know, you're the only Ambrosia game to have your own, alternative forums, besides EV Nova (and that alternate forum no longer exists) and the Introversion games (which are Windows ports). That says something about you that you need to come to grips with. Redline became a lot less fun for me and many others once the game got released publicly, because the people who only played Sim mode were outright hostile to those of us who thought it was just a game. Right now, there are people positively fuming because they take the game, and the forums, extremely seriously, and others ("outsiders") do not. This is the reality of the situation. As I said, Redline attracted a different sort of gamer. Well to be honest, you're invading on our turf, not the other way around. Please try to make an effort to acclimate yourselves to the Ambrosia web boards when you visit them, do not expect others to change for you. You are guests, but welcome guests. If nobody has yet done so, let me extend an invitation to all of you to read and post on other forums of the Ambrosia web boards. There are general purpose forums for those of you not interested in other Ambrosia products. If you like keeping up on technology news, for example, there's a forum for that. There's another that specializes in politics. There's another for discussing games of all sorts, and there are a couple that more general that that. I'd also invite you to actually try some other Ambrosia games. You might like them, and it's shareware so you've got nothing to lose.

Lastly, everyone needs to let the past be the past, and let things go. When a topic gets locked, let it stay locked and move on with your lives. If you have questions or concerns about it, contact privately the moderator who closed the topic. If you've been warned about something, either swallow your pride and try to learn from it, or politely contact the moderator who warned you to discuss it. Don't spread your anger about it all over the Redline forum, that just disrespects everyone else who wants to use the Redline forum for something other than hearing you complain. You may think I'm a monster, based on what certain people have told you, but the folks who contact me politely and privately about situations and the actions I've taken always get detailed, polite clarifications. The people who send angry nasty PMs have gotten more curt replies, because there's nothing I can do when they just want to vent. The people who make a huge fuss about it publicly, send angry messages to a bunch of other moderators and admins, and spam up my profile page, well, they are no longer with us on the Ambrosia web boards. How you react to problems says a lot about who you are. As somebody whose job it is to manage a social medium, the people who are polite and don't cause trouble are the sort I want to keep around in that social medium. I would hope you agree. The forums may help facilitate activities that aren't social, such as plug-in development, but the primary purpose of the forums is to discuss things. People who are rude and mean aren't welcome.

That's where we are, and that's what's going to happen one way or another on the Ambrosia web boards. If you have no interest in being polite, in following the community rules, in being kind to people you don't know but are nonetheless all around you, and in moving on from problems when they arise, you should just stay here on this board. You can make up your own rules and never talk to anybody outside your group, and, if people from other sites come here, you can expect them to adjust to you. But, if you have an interest in being on the Ambrosia web boards, you'll need to accept the realities I've laid out. Really guys, there's no reason why you can't be on both boards and fit in both places. I think what I've outlined here is perfectly reasonable.

Remember that moderators, super moderators, and admins are people too. The first two groups are entirely volunteer. We aren't paid, we're just here because we want to help, and we want the community to do well. We give up a portion of our free time to help out a company we are happy customers of, and to help out our fellow customers. I've written this massive post here on a forum I have no stake in, because I want everyone involved, including those I've had to temporarily suspend, to remain on the Redline forums and be nice to each other once all of this cools down. Nobody is required to forget anything, but please do learn to forgive.

I'll be happy to take any questions or comments you have by PM on the Ambrosia web boards. I can make no guarantees I ever return to this website or topic.

[djpimley]

Hello, mrxak.

Even though I am thoroughly bored with this, more fool me I read your entire post. Thanks for trying to make yourself understood, but giving us a 4-point plan telling us how we can fix our behaviour tells me that you don't understand us at all. As you can see on the ASW forum, we have been trying very hard to resume normal civil behaviour and get "back to business" whilst other community members have continued to throw dirt at us for the last 2 days.

I hope you banned that sock puppet (definition).

EDIT: I can't speak for every Redline player, but everyone on this forum holds Jonas in the highest regard.

EDIT EDIT: Oh, man, I almost forgot. Tomte, I hope your little Tomtette is doing well.

[Tuktuk]

Your post is not too long but too complicated - imho. It shows things aren't unimportant for you. But I pick only 2 things out:

Post some funny pictures or make some funny jokes, and laugh a little. Redline is just a game, and the Redline forum is just a forum. If you can't have any humor in life, that's just sad

Yeah, that's the point. I don't know the reason why "eniosam" was banned and I didn't know him as a poster also. But I know he placed a thread title with "a smiley only" and it was locked or deleted (I don't remember) - reason: "no content", "against the rules" … But the thread message was crystal clear: He was sad about something specific. It was clearer than tons of words could say.

This shows the whole thing: People and obviously moderators too mistake jokes or fun for spam and vice versa. Lots of flamers hide themselves behind alleged but apparent spam or pictures. Harmless comments are estimated as insults or heating up the situation. Alleged insults are estimated as jokes. The resulting policy is just not comprehensible.

It is a swamp - if you step in you aren't able to keep yourself clean. Thats the reason why "we" try to SIMulate the real life in forums too because it is the only way to avoid all these typical forum misunderstandings.

I don't know any nicer forum than the board here and the redline forum at ASW. (You can't mix all the Ambrosia forums together. It depends on the style of the game behind - good behavior is a must everywhere of course)

That's all and always the beginning of these recurring flames.

The Ambrosia web boards are run by a company, at great cost to them, as a way to support their products, and to facilitate communities. Posting there is a privilege, not a right, and offered to you for free.

Ahem, ahem. As I said, good behavior is a must. But it isn't a privilege posting there. Why not? Ambrosia as any other company making money with community games has to offer a web board to give their online playing customers the possibility to exchange their view - or they wouldn't accepted anymore.

[Pax-raider]

Thanks for the long and considered post mrxak. I don't agree with with everything you said, but I think Redliners have to accept some responsibility for the flame fest, and that we need to be more tolerant of perceived "outsiders" in the future.

I think it might help to draw a line under this ugly episode if we also close this topic here. Assuming this is possible, given that to my knowledge a topic has never been locked here before...

[DonaemouS]

hello and welcome mrxak.

Your post deserve to be read just only for the time you spent on it. gg

[amped™]

/me shakes hiney at everyone

[DonaemouS]

hiney

EDIT:


HINEY!!!

[amped™]

hiney

EDIT:


HINEY!!!

Who is that? I must have her!!!

[Pax-raider]

I was thinking it was leo and cg, so be careful...

[20FingerS]

Oh god...now I have to admit something...
I didn't read all the comments in "those" threads before posting mine...I didn't noticed there was a mod's warning to stop the fire.
Now I understand a bit more why I was locked for 3 days.

@Alphose the master...this has become something more than just a fight, at least for us, has become much more some sort of social matter and a new way of discovering the new world laws, how human behaviour has changed with the virtuality of our existence...I know it may seems a bit boring, but it's not, from this point of view.
I don't think anyone pretended to change the others' mind, rather we wanted to express our opinion on that kind of attack (aka joking...).

I was maybe rude ( I can't remember anymore my post...has been removed. I remember I wrote "WTF"), but I asked the mods to defend
Redliners (not that we needed it) maybe suspending some of the attackers...bad result...and also at this point looks like we don't deserve it at all...we are bad, we are narrow-minded and without sense of humour...apparently too serious. Though, I think as respectful newbee, Redline community accepted me really well and explained me patiently all the rules...Even at the very start I never felt put aside or discriminated cause I was a newcomer. But I think I got that treatment because I showed respect.

Now a little story...
Once upon a time, my grandfather was prisoner during the 2nd world war. He was in a concentration camp and life was tough. One day one of the warden shouted to the prisoners: "you scum, you dirty Italian pigs, move your ass!". It wasn't the first time the prisoners were insulted, but my granddad punched him in the face and let him on the floor unconscious...then he was brought in front of the senior officer of the camp to being investigated. He was asked why he punched the warden, and he said that he put in the same sentence the words "pig" and "Italian", and that was against the rights of the prisoners.
The senior officer punished the warden and let my granddad go back to the barracks.
End of the story, which I think may have been more interesting if my English was more academic...

Am I off topic? Sorry if so...I should write on my moleskine rather that make everyone bored here...

See you on the tarmac...almost forgot that thing....

[A-rod]

Same here, 20Fingers. I don't see why, when I try to play it straight and call it like I see it (i.e. the mods were just fueling the flames), I get a warning and a suspension for 3 days. Looks like I'll be releasing my stuff on here from now on, just like Don.

[Mackilroy]

You can call it however you like, but mrxak didn't see it that way.

Also, you have two new moderators now – andiyar and myself. We'll be keeping a close eye on the Redline forum just in case things get out of hand again.

[DonaemouS]

Also, you have two new moderators now – andiyar and myself.

To be honest, this is a good news so far... andiyar... never seen before!

[kopje]

Is here the party?

I'm just giving some more fuel to this cause I agree with Tomte.
He could not say better what I think too (and what I said to Val some days ago).
Maybe I'm a nerd, maybe not, who knows? But I'm surfing through forums since 15 years and I think that on ASW board we react a bit too much when someone poke in.
I also think it's not a good move avoid posting on ASW forum... on my side I'll go on posting there sometimes and keeping an eye here when I've time to.

kop

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