Batting a 1.000?

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  See Flat on Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:31 pm

DonaemouS wrote: the only car with advantage is the Mercedes 190 TCC, she is faster then other on every tracks. Hope Tomte will fix it.
The only guy that wins with the 190 is Val. Everyone else eventually loses control, including Tomte :0

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  leoantix on Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:52 pm

See Flat wrote:The only guy that wins with the 190 is Val. Everyone else eventually loses control, including Tomte :0
what val? pfft ... he never wins at all Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  NoNameBrand on Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:13 pm

Speaking of Val and the Merc, OMD booted him today, accusing him of cheating, 'cause he blew by everyone with it. Amusingly, in the next race, CowGirl blew by everyone at the start with it and led the whole race (until I quit on the final lap due to supper).

Also, amusingly, I was in second for most of the race with the SEAT Leon.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  alphonse on Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:28 pm

NoNameBrand wrote:Speaking of Val and the Merc, OMD booted him today, accusing him of cheating, 'cause he blew by everyone with it. Amusingly, in the next race, CowGirl blew by everyone at the start with it and led the whole race (until I quit on the final lap due to supper).

CG with the merc is in fact a good combo Rolling Eyes

I am not a priest, but my sense for justice comes into my mind.
There is no need to kick Val if he is winning. As everyone can see on the checksum-bestlist (as SeeFlat mentioned on TS), there is no evidence Val is cheating. He is fast.
Is there no place in the Redline MP for a 15 year old beating all the old men?
I dont want to start a discussion in this thread, but if you share my feelings, please give it a room in a new topic. if not, i am the lonely rider and can life with it.


Also, amusingly, I was in second for most of the race with the SEAT Leon.


I like the SEAT, but its not faster than other TCC's imho...

Have fun,
slightly frustrated...
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  slow on Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:37 pm

indeed i am old, but i dont mind being beaten by a younger person. it just seemed odd that val could pass omd and i at the rate that he did. i could very certainly be wrong but it just seemed "too" fast. and another thing....he does it every time...who bats a thousand? i have my good and bad days...sometimes im on fire and can win many races, sometimes i cant, and sometimes i just have a bad day of racing when im just driving terribly and cant drive my way out of a wet paperbag.this doesnt seem to happen to him. in my experience val wins every race. it just seems odd to me. i cant say for sure that there is something backhanded going on...just that i have a weird feeling about it. i might be wrong and if that is so i give my deepest apologies.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  leoantix on Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:46 pm

yay! legacy's first split ... how exciting clown

i have had my doubts about valentine and his abilities and its definately not the age thing that bothers me at all. everyone has the right to their own opinion and this is the place for them to get voiced. no apologies required either Very Happy

edit: i split the previous topic and started this one, not SeeFlat ... blame me please


Last edited by leoantix on Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:51 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : split topic)

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  alphonse on Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:07 pm

Thanks for splitting it down and the thread on that topic, leo.
I absolutely share your feelings about Val. He is extremely fast. Even on random-generated tracks.
This is much, probably too much and leads to bad feelings even with me.

So the feeling of OMD, slow, tendencially leo and myself lead to the direction of whether he is cheating or not. Am i right?

I can just see no evidence for it. Thats fact.

If he races with DonaemouS or Pastrl, it is not soo clear who wins - right or not? i mean the difference of time is not too obvious. I could be wrong, i don't know - its 2 am and 4 hours of sleep ahead of me, so i don't want to verify this using any results i had to search for. Please put your opinion in here Don, Past, whoever of the fastest besides Val.

But if i were hosting and kick Don, Past, Val, slow, leoantix, slowDan and all faster players than me ... it would just give an elGuapo effect - a not understandable nonsense (but if i were not alone after kicking all Sad i would probably be able to win the races - well - probably not all albino like Val does).

So if there is a proof or a common sense that Val IS cheating or highly suspected to cheat it would just be fair, that the community tells him exactly this fact / decision and asks him kindly to prefer another hobby.
If not, its discriminating to let him not play just because his is fast - isn't it? Please proove me wrong.
It would be different if he hits all or spams during a race - but he doesnt.

i hope anyone can enlighten my idea-lessness on that matter, but let us find a consensus on how we find a proper position.

sorry for that un-funny-topic...

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  See Flat on Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:05 am

I was wondering how I could start this topic while watching a movie?
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  NoNameBrand on Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:19 am

Just because he's running legit cars in Time Trial doesn't mean he's running them in game, but if he can consistently put down great times in Time Trial, why would he bother hacking the cars?

In the first RRL that he participated in, after his demolishing of everyone on Small Rally and Bardagi, GA told me to watch the redlogs and tell him what I thought.

It was obvious he was fast, but what struck me most compared to the other drivers were how much the front wheels were flipping left-to-right. He was changing inputs much more often than the other drivers and he had much better lines than everyone else because of it. His muscle-car powerslides around Bardagi were perfect, every turn. I didn't think he was cheating then, and I don't now.

He does make errors though. Racing around Spa last week, I had the line into the first of the Double Gauche turns, and he lost his Ultima into the barrel - he was sure I'd run him off - the replay showed my vette was a whole car-width away when he lost it. He did accept this with good grace once the replay showed what happened, but was somewhat cross at me until then.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  DonaemouS on Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:29 am

See Flat wrote:The only guy that wins with the 190 is Val. Everyone else eventually loses control, including Tomte
Yesterday, I did a 3 laps test with all TCC on Lime Rock just to took a look at times. You know, I have tons of hours with Volvo, and SEAT and Vauxhaull are comfortable too, so it wasn't hard to get a fast lap quickly. But Mercedes is completely different, rwd, oversteering behavior.

But, in 3 laps i did:

Code:
1.       Val entin K   Germany    0:54.49     Lime Rock Park [Beta 1.1]   Mercedes 190 TCC   Yesterday, 6:14 pm   
    2.       DonaemouS   Italy    0:54.81     Lime Rock Park [Beta 1.1]   Mercedes 190 TCC   Yesterday, 3:09 pm

Just 0,5 seconds then Val's time? His car of choice? What this mean? This NOT mean Val is slow, or cheating, or what else you should think. But this mean Val is smarter, because in every race he play, you never see him choose the hardest car to drive, but the easy one.

This is a different way to play. This is the way YOU should play if you want to win, instead thinking about other players cheating.

In a race where there are: Sauber C9, Mazda or Porsche 962c, what you will go to use? The Sauber? No! Yes, she is faster, but harder to play, and errors could penalize the entire race, so you race with Mazda. And Mazda is the car of Val's choice.

It's really fun, I am here to defend Val performance, cause i hate his kid and annoying behavior.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  djpimley on Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:41 am

Well, here are my thoughts about Valentin.

The first I knew of him was the RRL time-trial-proof incident. It seems he had a reputation for being somewhat obnoxious in multiplayer at the time but in all my encounters with him since (and I have had quite a few) I have found him to be gracious and friendly. He has the occasional lapse - typing messages whilst leading the race by a mile or racing too aggressively whilst overtaking players who are obviously much less skilled the he - but we all have our moments.

The important thing is that behaviour like this is not the norm. On one occasion he made a badly judged manoeuvre and knocked me off the track, I was quite annoyed and commented "that was stupid." He immediately apologised and pulled over to let me pass him. I think he is fast because he has this game licked, like a five-year-old who can program the VCR his parents don't understand. I don't think he cheats, I think he has uncanny natural ability and he practices to hone his skills. He has a great knowledge of the pros and cons of each car and that does not come from cheating, it comes from hours of practice.

And if he does win unfairly? Well, he is on his own in the lead by a big margin at the end of almost every race. That is quite a lonely way to play a racing game for people like us who enjoy close battles for position, so what reason is there to be jealous or angry at him in the case? He is depriving himself of the very thing we enjoy most.

If I think back to when I was 15, I know I certainly was not mature enough to be a part of an adult crowd like the Redline sim community, and seeing the way Val behaves gives me a lot of respect for him. Except when he fights with Aleksi... Wink
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  slowDan on Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:26 am

djpimley wrote:Seeing the way Val behaves gives me a lot of respect for him. Except when he fights with Aleksi... Wink
The fights with Aleksi are funny. And seem to have no reason that I have been able to make out. Laughing

I'm with the not cheating crowd. I have had many races with Val, right back to when he relentlessly raced city as a demo, and I have been alongside in the same car many times. Not for long mind you, he just has that totally natural knack of getting the power on at the right time in the right place and blowing everyone away.

FWIW he seems to be getting the idea that picking the fastest car out there is not always the most fun way to play. Using the RRL as an example, he was telling us all that the LC2 is the fastest but went with the Mazda in the end anyway. Otherwise I'm sure he would have been lapping us all! Wink
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  DonaemouS on Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:31 am

alphonse wrote:He is extremely fast. Even on random-generated tracks.
ops i didn't saw this phrase.

Have u ever tried the scripted original Golf division something on the rally random-generated tracks?

Well, use that car (I refused to download for a loooooong period) and pls come back with us with your suggestion.

It's like a train on railways. just push accelerator as some thomm's turbo-like cars and go whereever you want. Is now really hard to be the quickest? In the last race I saw you was using the S6 Avant... well, I think you need much more respect for your second place with an S6 than a first place with the nsf'like golf he made.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  NoNameBrand on Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:40 am

slowDan wrote:
djpimley wrote:Seeing the way Val behaves gives me a lot of respect for him. Except when he fights with Aleksi... Wink
The fights with Aleksi are funny. And seem to have no reason that I have been able to make out.

Well, I have seen Aleksi type some very crude things about Val's (12 year-old) sister (I kicked him afterwards). I think the immature Aleksi just brings out the fact that Val is also still a teenager.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  See Flat on Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:01 am

slowDan wrote:
djpimley wrote:Seeing the way Val behaves gives me a lot of respect for him. Except when he fights with Aleksi... Wink
I'm with the not cheating crowd. I have had many races with Val, right back to when he relentlessly raced city as a demo, and I have been alongside in the same car many times. Not for long mind you, he just has that totally natural knack of getting the power on at the right time in the right place and blowing everyone away.

FWIW he seems to be getting the idea that picking the fastest car out there is not always the most fun way to play. Using the RRL as an example, he was telling us all that the LC2 is the fastest but went with the Mazda in the end anyway. Otherwise I'm sure he would have been lapping us all! Wink

I tend to be in this line of thought. I think he is the best taking all into consideration and has the game licked. Think of the Matrix, there are rules, some of them can be broken, but in the end, it's not reality it's a game and one can beat it. This is Val. I dont think he cheats in the pure sense, he cheats in not not following the moral sim path. He will use the flaws of the game to help him. I dont agree he does not play only to win. he only takes that position when he finds it politically correct to do.

It's as you say, he has the knowledge of the cars, and knows which is best for what. He even sometimes tells me which car to use for what track... taking in consideration my lack of talent and which car... _I_ would do better with. And that is .. his arrogantly helpful way! Wink

My beef with Val has always been the same since I've put away my suspicions of him altering .car. He will probably win the race, but he is still too damn aggressive and often ruins other players races. Not on purpose, but those less talented players cannot recover from losing control in the sand after he side swipes them. I've been telling him for a year... take your time.... I've stopped saying it now.

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  Speeddemon on Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:05 pm

I'm with no cheating. Just because he is fast and drives well (and drifts extremely well) does not mean he cheats. The drifting can be explained by is keyboard usage, as I find it easier to drift many cars with the keyboard. He also has a lot of talent for it. I see no reason do ban him from doing something he is good at. Although I wouldn't let him join A.R.S.E., as it is an amateur league and he would beat the stuffing out of us. Very Happy
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  alphonse on Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:59 pm

Thank you all for your words on this topic.
I was pretty frustrated when this story was started. But all your thoughts and words, combined with fine racing, helped me to resume normal operations of my mindset.

Just as a conclusion of the discussion (executive Summary cyclops ) i would like to fix things up:
-> There is no proove for Val cheating.
-> The fastest Players in Redline besides him are close to his times.
-> He is a brilliant young racer.
-> Even he can loose races (yep, i think this happened somewhen in the past) Laughing
-> Sympathy is an individual thing, nothing the community here can conclude.
-> He does not harm other drivers and plays fair when on track


So my recommendation would be:
-> stop insulting Val of cheating, in lobby or races.
If you get bad feelings start on post one of this topic - and add your opinion to the topic after having read the whole topic

-> dont kick a player when he is faster than you
If you cant loose fair, sim-racing probably is not matching your mental construct
Hosts have the possibility and right to kick players at their taste. But there sould be more of an argumentation than
"you won, i kick you" or the popularity of the host (being us joiners all) might not grow at your will.

-> Tell other Racers if you feel like there was something unfair
Direct conversation has the possibility to smoothen feelings out at the source. You may also bring it up here if this is not possible or does not smoothen things out enough.



Does this seem to make sense or am i just wasting my time here - i am unsure now...

thank you all for your time spent reading and answering this topic,
a nice crowd...

alphonse

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  leoantix on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:32 am

makes perfect sense alf and appreciated for the words, also i do appreciate everyone that added their two cents on the matter ... opinions will be opinions, just like ... well yea know the rest


Last edited by leoantix on Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  Tomte on Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:18 am

I was preparing a lengthy comment to all this in the note pad app of my non-iPhone when I didn't have WLAN, only to find out that copy and paste doesn't work with the browser...

Anyway, I believe that Val is not cheating, only that he has exceptional skills when it comes to drive difficult cars.
The way he powerslides the M Coupe around Lime Rock Park is astonishing to me. He can do this constantly on nearly every turn, and he is still faster than most this way. He explained to me how to do it, but I'm just not able enough. Thing is, this car is set up for this. If he would have changed the power or aerodynamic settings of the car, the balance would go out of the window. Val is racing with the keyboard, so he actually hasn't a very precise throttle control.

As for the 190, when working on version 1.1 it was clear to me from the outset that the car would get too easy for Val. But in order to generally improve it and make it more appealing for the moaning masses, I smoothed over some edges (with which Val never seemed to have a problem with).
The car is still more difficult in the corner entry, you still have to be more precise compared to the FWD cars. But precision is not Val's weak point.

Btw, why does Val has a user account here?


Last edited by Tomte on Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo, the phone's predictive text is sometimes just stoopid :))
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  DonaemouS on Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:58 am

Tomte wrote:As for the 190, when working on version 1.1 it was clear to me from the outset that the car would get too easy for Val. But in order to generally improve it and make it more appealing for the moaning masses, I smoothed over some edges (with which Val never seemed to have a problem with).
The car is still more difficult in the corner entry, you still have to be more precise compared to the FWD cars. But precision is not Val's weak point.
ermmh there is just something wrong. You don't need to release an update cause Val is fast with Mercedes, but just because everyone are faster with Mercedes.

There is something all of you was forgetting. At the time of SF Invitational RLTCC tourney, Valentin K register him self with Renesis Mazda. Once Renesis updated his car following DANDY and slowDan comments, and she become slower, Valentin K quickly changed his car choice in Mercedes, cause this car was up and running for RLTCC, and became, since the first turns, a rocket compared to all others. Was so quick that also a player like Glurp (with all the respect for him), was quick as the first players, and even faster then Pastrl.

Now, the car was released in time for RLTCC and qualifications, so all players have the same amount of time to try it. Now, or Glurp is a monster player, or this car is just easy to drive and faster (you wrote harder).

Now, first the Mazda, the ultra_whined car was killing TCC races, now the Mercedes, the actually ultra-faster car is killing the TCC races. Update this car to become slower the any other, and you'll see Valentin K moving on thomm's turbo-like AlfaRomeo.

Now, again, is really hard be the faster with the faster car? Any of you, posting and writing about Val cheating, have a look at Leoantix's last Mazda race?

I think no, cause you are too much involved in discovering how a good player can be fast with a fast car, then look how an amazing driver can be fast on a no-made-for-mazda track. silent

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  leoantix on Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:01 pm

DonaemouS wrote:Now, again, is really hard be the faster with the faster car? Any of you, posting and writing about Val cheating, have a look at Leoantix's last Mazda race?
I think no, cause you are too much involved in discovering how a good player can be fast with a fast car, then look how an amazing driver can be fast on a no-made-for-mazda track. silent

im confused ... are you saying the mazda is easier or faster? imho, the mazda isn't all that built for limerock either, for i get chewed up in the first half of the track. the only advantage the mazda has at limerock is the last turn and straight.

Tomte wrote:Btw, why does Val has a user account here?
i just noticed in the member list he did sign up for an account, yet never activated it .... interesting


Last edited by leoantix on Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  DonaemouS on Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:09 pm

leoantix wrote:im confused ... are you saying the mazda is easier or faster?
no, i just said the opposite and tried to write my compliments to your race Neutral

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  leoantix on Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:17 pm

DonaemouS wrote:
leoantix wrote:im confused ... are you saying the mazda is easier or faster?
no, i just said the opposite and tried to write my compliments to your race Neutral

/me smacks himself with another hot cup of coffee ... hehe, sorry bud. between the long hours last night and the lack of caffeine in my system, seems i didn't quite get your post the first time Embarassed

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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  Tomte on Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:56 pm

DonaemouS wrote:
ermmh there is just something wrong. You don't need to release an update cause Val is fast with Mercedes, but just because everyone are faster with Mercedes.

There is something all of you was forgetting. At the time of SF Invitational RLTCC tourney, Valentin K register him self with Renesis Mazda. Once Renesis updated his car following DANDY and slowDan comments, and she become slower, Valentin K quickly changed his car choice in Mercedes, cause this car was up and running for RLTCC, and became, since the first turns, a rocket compared to all others. Was so quick that also a player like Glurp (with all the respect for him), was quick as the first players, and even faster then Pastrl.

Now, the car was released in time for RLTCC and qualifications, so all players have the same amount of time to try it. Now, or Glurp is a monster player, or this car is just easy to drive and faster (you wrote harder).

Now, first the Mazda, the ultra_whined car was killing TCC races, now the Mercedes, the actually ultra-faster car is killing the TCC races. Update this car to become slower the any other, and you'll see Valentin K moving on thomm's turbo-like AlfaRomeo.
Don, sorry, I'm confused.
The 190 was always a quick car on certain tracks, namely Lime Rock and Mt Panorama. I have no idea if it was really the quickest there, but it was fast when driven correctly. On other tracks, it was much slower on average because it was difficult to handle. You had to be more careful and precise with the 190 when entering corners than with all the FWD cars. So it had a disadvantage there.
I generally have no problem with that the 190 was slower on certain courses and faster on others.
The problem I had was that it was just too twitchy in some situations, so much that I felt that people don't like driving it because of that.
So I made the 190 a bit easier to drive, also in order to make it more attractive for others. But I still think that it has disadvantages on certain tracks or corners compared to the competition. I still think that it will be slower or faster than the others depending on the track.

So do you think that the 190 is too fast now? On average over all race tracks? If this is the case and the majority of yo agrees, I will slow her down. I don't know how yet, probably reducing the power even further or increase the frontal air resistance. I don't want to change the road holding abilities, because I'm finally happy with it.
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Re: Batting a 1.000?

Post  leoantix on Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:25 am

Tomte wrote:So do you think that the 190 is too fast now? On average over all race tracks? If this is the case and the majority of yo agrees, I will slow her down. I don't know how yet, probably reducing the power even further or increase the frontal air resistance. I don't want to change the road holding abilities, because I'm finally happy with it.
i think she has finally found her niche imho ... no need to change anything, a good happy medium

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