Mid-Ohio

Kenners · Kenners on Tue May 26, 2009 10:31 am

This is a better place for this topic, I think..

The creators of the rFactor Mid-Ohio track have not given me permission to port & release to the public a version for Redline. However, they have graciously given me permission to work on it privately. With that in mind, I will be soliciting among my friends here on the LoL forums for some private testing and play. I can PM folks when I have a beta ready. Drop a reply here if you're interested.

Kenners

Pax-raider · Pax-raider on Tue May 26, 2009 10:50 am

I'd like to try out the updates.

I'm a bit confused though about the difference between refusal to allow you to port a version, but working on it "privately". Seems like you either can port it or you can't... ? Suspect

Kenners · Kenners on Tue May 26, 2009 10:53 am

Pax-raider wrote:I'd like to try out the updates.

I'm a bit confused though about the difference between refusal to allow you to port a version, but working on it "privately". Seems like you either can port it or you can't... ?

Here's a quote from his reply:

"if you want you can give that a try with the gmt sources for your private uses - but we please you to not release it in public."

So that's how I read it. I'l include a read me which states this is not in the public domain, do not share, etc.. Think I'm pushing it?

-K

Pax-raider · Pax-raider on Tue May 26, 2009 11:12 am

Kenners wrote:"if you want you can give that a try with the gmt sources for your private uses - but we please you to not release it in public."

Hmm, I think I see the distinction - you are saying the track will only be released to a select group of us rather than as a standard plug via Legacy. I guess that sounds OK, but at what point does it become effectively public, after you've given it to 10 friends, or 25, or 50?

C14ru5 · C14ru5 on Tue May 26, 2009 12:00 pm

There are two versions of Mid Ohio for rFactor - which one is it that you have permission to use in private?

One is by Virtua_LM and MonSum, and the other is by James Burroughs. The first one states that "Conversion or modification of any of this package's contents is strictly prohibited", but if you haven't explored the second version, I would recommend that you try.

Pax-raider wrote:at what point does it become effectively public, after you've given it to 10 friends, or 25, or 50?

I'm explaining this from Norwegian law, but most European laws should be similar:

It's not about numbers, it's about accessibility. So if a large group of people have gotten a password from Kenners in private to join a game where he is the host, it's still considered private. This would be valid as long as it's reasonable to believe that Kenners has granted each individual user access without distributing either the I.P. or the password publically, and without any extra help (i.e. no "middle men", messengers, or tools). The use of mailing lists is debatable, usually it becomes public once you send email outside the domain of your local mail server.

Did that explanation make it easier to understand the difference between private and public?

Pax-raider · Pax-raider on Tue May 26, 2009 12:56 pm

C14ru5 wrote:Did that explanation make it easier to understand the difference between private and public?

Not really. I'm more interested in what the person intended by their request, rather than a legal definition. In other words, if it was me, I'd ask them "is it OK if I...". I think there is a near certainty than nobody would start a legal action against K if he did release a plug on Legacy; to me its more important to play nice. If we don't we run the risk of being black-balled by all other rFactor track-makers and be unable to port versions of other tracks in the future.

Kenners · Kenners on Tue May 26, 2009 3:39 pm

C14ru5 wrote:There are two versions of Mid Ohio for rFactor - which one is it that you have permission to use in private?

One is by Virtua_LM and MonSum, and the other is by James Burroughs. The first one states that "Conversion or modification of any of this package's contents is strictly prohibited", but if you haven't explored the second version, I would recommend that you try.

I didn't see/wasn't aware of the other one; I'll have a go at that. MonSum is the person that I corresponded with, the Virtua_LM folks. Thanks. And, I don't want to jeopardize any relationships with any other person(s) that might be willing to allow a track to be ported.

Cheers,

Kenners

C14ru5 · C14ru5 on Tue May 26, 2009 4:09 pm

Kenners wrote:I didn't see/wasn't aware of the other one; I'll have a go at that. [...] I don't want to jeopardize any relationships with any other person(s) that might be willing to allow a track to be ported.

In that case, better make sure the second version is not a bootleg, perhaps by asking not only James Burroughs, but MonSum as well. My guess is that it is another version of the first one, allowed since it's distributed as rFactor-only. Still, let's keep our fingers crossed.

leoantix · leoantix on Tue May 26, 2009 4:57 pm

this is good and interesting news ... after reading C14ru5's comment, i suggest just making the track available only via request Idea

Tomte · Tomte on Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:40 am

Excellent work, Kenners. The track looks very polished, nice textures, lots of details. I like the light effects a lot.

My frame rate is quite bad though, worse than say Monaco. It's ok for time trial, but I'm not sure how it will be in MP (if this is ever going to happen).

The grass is quite bumpy, so one false move of the track with one wheel (with a car that doesn't like bumps), the the lap is ruined. I don't say this is bad, it seems to be a feature of several of your tracks.

djpimley · djpimley on Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:46 am

Very nice. That's a well outfitted pit lane. Very Happy

A bit of GPU badness, as discussed in the Laguna Seca thread. I'm holding a respectable 60 fps on most of the track but around the finishing straight and the back straight it's down to 30 fps. I had a fly around and I don't see much transparency so perhaps it's just weight of detail - I have 8x FSAA enabled.

I did a few laps with the SR8 and I've also been testing at Watkins Glen. The SR8 can't hold the track for toffee on the sweeping turns on these tracks - gets past the apex and then on exit it spins off into the shrubbery. I've been playing with the car but I can't do anything to fix it. These corners all look banked and my guess is because Redline doesn't simulate centrifugal force, light cars just can't find any grip.

Kenners · Kenners on Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:03 am

djpimley wrote:Very nice. That's a well outfitted pit lane.

A bit of GPU badness, as discussed in the Laguna Seca thread. I'm holding a respectable 60 fps on most of the track but around the finishing straight and the back straight it's down to 30 fps. I had a fly around and I don't see much transparency so perhaps it's just weight of detail - I have 8x FSAA enabled.

I did a few laps with the SR8 and I've also been testing at Watkins Glen. The SR8 can't hold the track for toffee on the sweeping turns on these tracks - gets past the apex and then on exit it spins off into the shrubbery. I've been playing with the car but I can't do anything to fix it. These corners all look banked and my guess is because Redline doesn't simulate centrifugal force, light cars just can't find any grip.

I have no evidence for this belief, but I think if there was a way to set normals, it would help with banked corners.

I really like the way the track looks with all the skid marks and tar patches - but those are all added as a separate object with, of course, alpha enabled. The only other alpha in the whole thing are the flags and the treeline, and the portable light towers (3 of them) along the start segment. I've thought about what C did with his new track, to make the skid marks part of the road textures (and have more textures as part of the track). I think I'm going to lose those skid objects & see what it does for FPS.

-K

djpimley · djpimley on Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:10 am

Kenners wrote:I've thought about what C did with his new track, to make the skid marks part of the road textures

I think that's a good call. Works nicely on Rudskogen.

Kenners · Kenners on Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:28 am

djpimley wrote:
Kenners wrote:I've thought about what C did with his new track, to make the skid marks part of the road textures

I think that's a good call. Works nicely on Rudskogen.

Removing those objects helps FPS some, but I didn't get "good" frame rates till I turned off the skid marks and the treeline. And at that, it still dropped into the 20s at the busiest parts of the track.

I'll have to do an inventory & see how many road textures I'd have to add to get what I want with the skid marks etc.

-K

C14ru5 · C14ru5 on Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:54 am

Rudskogen is a bit unfair comparison, since it's a smaller track with much less detail. 12000 triangles in beta 1, I'm aiming for 15000. 900 triangles in materials with alpha blending enabled.

Out of curiosity, how many polygons are there in your Mid Ohio project? I suspect that's the biggest problem. Even your track marshals have more details than Redline's default driver!

Kenners · Kenners on Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:08 pm

C14ru5 wrote:Rudskogen is a bit unfair comparison, since it's a smaller track with much less detail. 12000 triangles in beta 1, I'm aiming for 15000. 900 triangles in materials with alpha blending enabled.

Out of curiosity, how many polygons are there in your Mid Ohio project? I suspect that's the biggest problem. Even your track marshals have more details than Redline's default driver!

Heck, I dunno how many polys.. I mean, one portion of the track model (it's split into 5 pieces) is 5100 polys. I chopped tons of polys out as I reworked things, but it is excessive. One of the wall sections (the biggest one, in terms of polys) is over 11000 polys. I think I might have to work that, maybe delete the tops & outsides of the walls & just set MI to draw them 2 sided. Wow: all the pit goodies, NOT counting the tents and flags, weighs in at over 10k polys.

*sigh* - I may not have a truly creative bone in my body, and I do enjoy this porting process, but I've got to pay more attention to what I'm working with.

-K

djpimley · djpimley on Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:50 pm

Kenners wrote:I may not have a truly creative bone in my body

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Perhaps you are not an artist but I have seen plenty of creativity in your lovely work on Brooklands and Watkins.

alphonse · alphonse on Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:23 pm

The track has a lovely race-line, bringing you into some meditation of racing and then boom - and you are gone.
I love it, especially with the Atom. Have some problems to keep eg the Lotus Exige on track - but i love it.
Much work around the track - and fps around 20-30 if there are no other racers... Elsehow (guess what) even worse.

I dont get the idea of that silly copyright regulation but i dont really need to.

good work - ty - alf

leoantix · leoantix on Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:08 pm

mmhmm its that good ... yet like others, getting some funky fps glitches around some parts of the track Suspect

Kenners · Kenners on Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:29 pm

Just an update.. I've spent the last couple days deleting tens of thousands of polys, and performance is where it needs to be, I think, for MP. Unfortunately, I felt I had to delete all the pit goodies (the toolboxes, computers, sprinklers, trash cans, etc.) to get there. I also deleted all the tops & backs of the walls/guardrails, which doesn't affect appearance to a great degree.

I'm now kinda working on altering the track surface textures, to put the tar patches on them, so I can have as nice looking a surface as there is in the released beta, but without having to resort to transparency. I think I can go from one main road texture (ROADB) to maybe 3, and hopefully this won't kill performance.

After that, I may see about skid marks.. Or maybe not. We can just pretend that there were very heavy rains before the race, and all the rubber got washed off the road..

I'll post here so those who got the link a few days ago can use the same link to get the update when it's ready.

Cheers,

Kenners

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